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Old 06-30-2005, 02:00 PM
mantiscave mantiscave is offline
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 41
Default The Mantis Cave

Let's not close the thread and have some discussion...
Sorry if it took me too long to write back. I do not have a lot of time to read forums nowadays and some friends notified me about your comments.
Mr. Wong Long (nice nick... talk about respecting the ancestors)
I think you do not have a problem with the information posted in The Mantis Cave (that is 100% about Northern Mantis). If I understood correctly your post, you are questioning one of my writings about Nan Tang Lang Quan (Southern Mantis).
Let me give you a little bit of a background about that document (that is not in my web page). I posted a DRAFT in a gong-fu discussion list back in 1997 asking for comments and corrections. Someone (withouth my authorization) took that document as it was and posted it in his web site just including a link to my e-mail address.
Since 1997 a lot of things have changed including some of my understanding of the different branches of tang lang quan, and I never found the time and desire to re-read and update that document to make it "clean" to be officially uploaded to The Mantis Cave... May be I should do that to kill all the "pirate" versions I have seen online. As I mentioned, it is an 8 year-old draft document, but I still think that most of it is accurate. We can discuss in detail the topics that you disagree (about Northern or Southern TLQ).

Other than that, forget the conspiracy theory. I had nothing to do with JFK killing and the CIA is not working with me on providing inaccurate information for my webpage to mislead the mantis community ;-) I am here to discuss and everybody knows who I am and where to reach me... I would also be good to know who you are...

Relax and enjoy your tang lang quan training

Best regards

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Old 06-30-2005, 04:12 PM
Steve Cottrell Steve Cottrell is offline
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 948
Default Greetings Fernando!!

Welcome Fernando,

I guess we have found what it takes to get you to come on board and post!

Thank you for the update on the origin of the article and comments. (I had always thought that the Mantis Cave was a Northern Mantis site but I had not information on what you had done in the past).

I hope that the discussion can be done now and in a civil fashion. As for me, it does not have to be done on the public boards for all that I care, only that the discussion take place and whatever issues WL has can be answered personally by you.

As an aside...
Though we don't require folks to use their names publically, everyone on this list gives their name and an email address to the administrator. No one is absolutely unknown. Giving a false name, email address or lineage gets one banned permanately, period.

Anyway thank you for getting on board for this and, should the discussion take place on this board, I look forward to it.

Steve Cottrell
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Old 06-30-2005, 05:12 PM
Mantis108 Mantis108 is offline
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 610
Cool Hi Fernando and All,

How goes it, my friend? I remember reading that article/draft somewhere online. I found it strange that it wasn't on the Mantis Cave but it bears your name. BTW, if you don't mind I would love to read that draft again. Please forward it to me if you can.

If memory serves, I did find myself disagreeing with certain views in that draft but I don't believe it's any malicious attack on the creditibility of any lineage or style. To condamn it as a conspiracy piece is a bit farfatched IMHO. I do believe Fernando's explanation that the draft was hijacked by interested party(ies) as a mean to serve their dark purpose. Such action can only be taken by cowards.

The draft might be regretably not an accurate supposition on the Southern Tanglang. It might theorize too much but it's all part of the process as far as researching goes. If it is a wrong path and a dead end, then we should leave it and look at elsewhere. It's not the end of the world or the clan.

Fernando operates the Mantis Cave on his own accord. He holds a job, a family and passion for NPM Kung Fu. He didn't ask for financial support from the community. In fact, it is run on his own money. Yes, time is money as well. I donated information to the MC just and many others who are in the NPM community did. He's always open minded when it comes to correction and criticism as long as it backed by reasons. This is part of his commitment to perfecting the Mantis Cave, which is IMHO a beautiful work in progress. Perhaps a reminder or a caveat is needed, but to discard and to discredit years of hardwork and great contribution to build a better Mantis community regardless of northern or southern, in my mind is counter productive.

I have personally been mistaken as a southern mantis practitioner before and have gone through the scrutiny by at least one of the SPM practitioners. So I learned the lesson to be careful when speaking of SPM in public. It's unfortunate because I appreciate a great art such as SPM but so be it.

Anyway, if there is a vote on how Fernando handles info on the Mantic Cave, I will give it 2 thumbs way up. You have my support on that project always, my friend.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

PS Do revise the draft if you see fit, Fernando. It would help to reflect your current understanding.
Contraria Sunt Complementa


CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

TJPM Forum

Your mind must be a scary place to be sometimes! (hmmmmm, have to think about that for a while...kind of like that movie "Being John Malcovitch"..."Being Mantis108"...) - Sifu Cottrell
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Old 06-30-2005, 08:21 PM
Michael Dasargo Michael Dasargo is offline
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 296
Default Precision vs. Accuracy


As always, you have my full support. I am very greatful for the work you have done, and even more so that you are willing to share your findings with the general public. I understand that it is nearly impossible to have 100% accuracy rate in regards to dates and minor details, however I've found that your work has been very precise and straight to the point. Keep up the good work!

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Old 06-30-2005, 08:48 PM
mantiscave mantiscave is offline
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 41
Default As discussed

Mike and Robert,
I will send you the check as discussed... Just kidding

I think through discussion in the forum we can get additional perspectives on the topics.... But public or private discussion is OK with me.
My e-mail address is all over the place in the web page for anybody to contact me. Just in case ;-)

Two post in a day (record for me)

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Old 06-30-2005, 10:48 PM
Wong Long
Posts: n/a
Smile Thank you for speaking up, Mantis Cave!


Indeed -I didn't think you'd reply, hmmn...... this board is good!!!

I remember one time years back, I asked about that piece on spm, and it took almost a year before you checked that email account (the one orinally on the first drafts.)

Indeed, I did mention there are 'new' versions of that work popping up all over! I read a new one on Kungfu online I think, this guy edited you kname off but changed around some even more facts... I was aware of the original draft, but you mean more than all these yrs. It's simply being 'recycled' to someone own ends??

hmmmn,,. well I did state that it was out of character because you're always covering-as much ground in the peices that you write, evern for that work in question (you clearly stated your seven star exponent).
But I felt this is getting out of hand, well not for you I'd hope after this outcry- I recieved many emails that someone finally is taking it so others will hear, and it's not an issue you've concerned with for yrs....

It's shows with your name -to it more than 50% of the time, I just couldn't believe anyone could do martial art (and then write something so, morally wrong. -and twist it further over time???)

So, Fernanfo- I owe you a larger apology- I was (and trust me others losts!!!) really unaware after all these years, that you ever were active in the mantis cave really, workin on the original ...-email address was someting strange... you are still getting emails from:

I don't remember what I was asking correction about then, but it may well be 5 or yrs more ago. ....then it was a 'year' later- I got a reply from you at that address. So I keep. a copy too to see how much has changed- original draft. And just see this monster grow, and lineage people are added, and it seems there are jounal entries, =and someone has tired their hand at some poor cantonese names =instead of your original mandarin,

*One 'nice' =point is there is now some respective note to 'Cheong Cheng Leong' (*wrote the 'phoenix eye fist with Draeger) -of Malasia and his Siu Lum family of Chu ka kuen.

Well, at least your hands are clean- so that simply leaves 'one' stone that hasn't been locatable -for at least the past 5 yrs.
Or his students, so this will continue. I will personally let those are unaware in UK of Whitrods affiliates, Chuk Chins' in MN, Mark, Yee's guys here and - in Uk, and Isreal, the Sue-tin family in Austraila, and all within my large family of close knit and devolted mantis boxers -that '
"Fernando Blanco hasn't a hand on that paper" - 'you're saying basically since your initial trial postings?

Well, there not much more I can do, -is just have others watch out for who is posting that piece over and over again. They'll be found out eventually.

At least it will start to circulate -you're actually a just guy...(after all but a day of posting), ---you frequent this page. This is good!

*Again appologies, -you can see the issues clearer now I'm sure, how they've magnified, and also -that there are some who you still get email from about the s.mantis history...... your name is on still on it.

I'm satisfied, -very. thanks for posting- some guys might be 'skittish' of a 'horde' of spm guys comming to maul this site I can predict a harty -NO.


Wong Long,

(-Thanks Steve Cottrell- for leaving up the postings for others to see!!! =it turns out- good for all time bieing.)
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Old 07-01-2005, 04:16 AM
Wong Long
Posts: n/a
Smile So you would correct the old document? Now?`

That sounds pretty nice there quite a few flaws that blossomed from the original one be a direct contributer. Mr. Hagood knows his kung fu, but he doen't belong on the lineage chart- ony students of his should take that number. Also 5 gen. Master brother near Master Marik in the orginal are named wrong Chuk Chin is put ah Chen, and Chin Ho Dun is also noted as 'ah Chen.'

If one simply looks to the artlicles that Yee has out by his students he readily states that he created 'baby' versions of the system in Bruce Campells note of his tales learning by Yee, Yee further is paraphrased that Lam liked them, thought he may be 'genious' for the simplifications, and that he blessed him to teach the kung fu- and he gave him a alter, not 'the' alter as is implied that Yee claims he has certain things, he certainly never has.
If Roger Hagood, everyone knows his level of distaste for Yee not following as everyone else basically does their own thing today- all different. And too Yee's stuff is radically different again. That Roger Hagood made a 13 or so publication about the school program 'frozon'' in time, which is just 13 pages of Henry Poo Yee is no-good. Come now, get over it- for sakes!!!
The credentials Yee part and the notice that you'lll just present the facts and let others judge for themselves.

-it's stated about the shrine again- and that Mark obvoulsy has the 'real one.' Where did Yee ever say he had the 'one?' Also, the man learned form Lam Wing Fay, pictures with a class the classmates vouch for him! They are all still friends- call Louie's school and say who you are and that you'd like to contact Wong Jai- a fellow Hip Sing Tong classmember of Yee's. There are others- Just say he's the 'calls himself the keeper of the flame' does thiis form he learned - is't different. And he's got students and awards. Done.

In all good taste Roger Hagood, Martin Eisen, and David Morgaine all are not lineage holders just people that hang out, one has written the other associates with a website, and the foremost first character needs no introducton. I would remove those mentioned. And clear up the Chu Chow part- State that Yip Shui (late) changed the name, and forced a division between himself and those who practice Chu gar. As for these new terms of chu gar gao- no, that not happening the one change I did like was the recongnition of Cheong Cheng Leong (phoenix eye phist) for his efforts to promote his Siu Lum Chu Ga Kung Fu in Malasia.

Those are the main points I believe all sides are against to clarify the Chu stystem to those who practice it, and simply state that before a point- after training Witrod Yiip Shui was not in disputes over names in the past but Now there exists a Chow Gar Tong Long Style. And there always was a Chu Gar to begin with, it's just being fair to all represented of mantis best. And not to build anyone ego's There are more fellows I feel should be removed, but for the most part in Jook Lum - would agree on the elimination of Hagood, Eisen, And Morgain, any of Rodgers students woulld gladly take his place and they belong there not him,

I made my points on Chow gar the rest, long winded accounts or retales' of Rodger himself explaining how the systems all work. Should be left for the individuals to come to seee for themselves. That's all pretty reasonalble changes and not anything I'm shure hasn' t been heard before. The histeory is being written faster than it is every having a chance to develp. All parties is getting their issues 'cleaned' off for an more ovjective or colored 'Roger Style' history. Remove the man, his opinions and just state who does what and earned it. Ex. if you call Louie's school for info on finding Wong Jai, you can also find out that He' Louie teaches 5 separate forms and one is called the Sieme Gune - kind of sound very liike Yee's secret 'Shiem Kune' doesn't it. Well theres just an example. Many you will find do things different. And Roger Hagood isn't well liked today in any of the schools I've taked to due to his 'promoting the opposite of the master' - especilallly one's he's pictured with- inclusive of Gin Foon Mark, Wong Bak Lim (was dispelled from lam's family of mantis- so perhaps he should be removed too), the Late Master Yip Shui, Whitrod belong there, Ip Chee you did't mention his time here in NY Chinatown durring Lam Wing Fays instensive training of students in the late 60 and early seventies "party boy' - that what he did, I can refer you to some he kept company with here. That is a tall order, and again like you do state it has been a long time -personally you've really nothign to gain from it except to reclaim the credibilty that having 'bamboo temple dot com' on your references and as the bulk contrubter behind the work. Loose that, and all faith can be restored I think.

I hope you can do this, if you are indeed wiling because I'm positive the decison to carry through with what I state above isn't new or novel or imposssible or the sort. It does represent breaking a bridge that you never needed.

Wong Long- thanks for the consderation Franco.- on the matter,
*( mantis is mantis but not to each family. Each has to get their own name sounded distincly. Despite any simiilarities in overall style system or common techinues.
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Old 07-01-2005, 04:58 AM
-N- -N- is offline
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 225

One could say the same exact thing but different about all the other information on Mantis Cave and the entire internet.

It might be simpler for Fernando to pass out large grains of salt to each person who clicks a link on his pages.

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Old 07-01-2005, 03:24 PM
mantiscave mantiscave is offline
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 41
Default Closing Remarks

Dear Sir,

Nice you got satisfied with my answer. The e-mail address you listed is an old job e-mail that does not work anymore…

No needs for an apology, no big deal. I am used to “not-too-friendly” communication from people angry with me because I included (or did not include) someone in “The Mantis Cave”.
It is clear that there are egos, politics and personal relationships involved in the history of the martial arts and it is impossible to keep everybody happy. Therefore, I include in “The Mantis Cave” what I think is true. Some of my statements are controversial and some people are not happy with me… I can live with that.

Specifically addressing your comments on Southern Praying Mantis, my first draft was uploaded by someone in his web page in Russia. I have asked that person endless number of times in friendly and not-friendly messages to eliminate the document but with no success. What I am supposed to do? Fly there to have a face-to-face discussion?
As you mention, over the years I have seen other “pirate” versions on-line with some changes from time to time. What does not make me too happy either…

As per your request of working updating the document, I do not have the time now. I am too busy with my work and the free time I have I am using to some other projects that are more interesting for me now. Maybe sometime in the future I will get back to the Southern Mantis History.

You seem to be very well connected with the Nan Tang Lang Quan family, please let them know that I am not the author of the “revised” versions. My last work on it was a draft in 1997…

Best regards

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Old 07-02-2005, 12:24 AM
Three Harmonies
Posts: n/a

You and your site are the ****, as always you have my support.

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