Iron Palm
 

I would love to open up a discussion about iron palm training. The are so many schools of thought and approaches to this type of training, I think this would be a worthwhile subject to discuss and debate.

I thought Shifu Mike Biggies iron palm presentation at the MQ gathering was insightful and interesting. I hope it makes it on the DVD Steve is putting together.

DStone,
I began iron palm training in my teens. So, I have been practicing the art for about thirty years, maybe more. Most instructors would say I have done most everything wrong. I started too young, practiced too hard and rarely have used any type of jow. Yet despite all that, my palm strikes have proven quite effective and my forty-seven year old hands have suffered no injuries from my training.
Though I will admit that the point of my training was to develop hands that could produce devastating effects on the human body rather than demonstrating how many boards and blocks I could break.
In my opinion, the ability to break inanimate objects has no relationship to effective palm/fist techniques against the hard and soft tissues of the human body.
I also believe that jow only provides a placebo effect in iron palm training. Proper training negates the need for jow.
(Richard now closes his can of worms)

Please note that this is only my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of most of my Kung Fu brothers, or past instructors.

Richard
Is Iron Palm training an integral part of the Mad Monkey system? Seems to fit if you know what I mean.
Jake :D

PS I am not much help since all the Iron Palm I have learned is from Mike Biggie, with some addtional help from Steve Cottrell Laoshi.

Jake,
Yes, it is a part of the Angry Monkey system. For those who choose to use some type of Jow, I point them to Mike Biggie (an expert on Chinese herbalism), or my student Gino Belfiore (who can provide them with Kwong Wing Lam's version).

Do you think Wing Lam's formula is better than Biggies?
Sorry, sorry, ANGRY frickin Monkey! Cousin of the more dreaded Mad Monkey, cuz he's CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111 :p ;) :D :rolleyes:

Cheers
Jake

I really don't feel I have the expertise to judge between the two.

Richard

I've heard good things about Mike Biggie's Jow. Is there an email address where I can contact him about getting some?

Tim

Hi,

Tie sha zhang - iron palm training in Yantai enought only 100 days. Most important is only medicine after and before training it is secret formula one element is sulphur. Iron palm training in Yantai is very hard and dangerous but when we have good teacher will be OK. The best age for training is age beetween 18 - 24 and most important during this 100 days no sex :D .

Slawomir Milczarek

Tim,
You can contact Mike Biggie at mantisbxr@aol.com
Mike works some crazy hours, plus teaching daily, so don't be discouraged if there is a slow reply.

Richard

NO SEX!!??!!??!!?? What kind of crazy training is that! :D JK
But on a serious note how important is celibacy during this time period? I have heard many different theories, the most logical one being that one should exercise some common sense and not screw right before you go train. Some are very stringent about this part of the training though. Would like to get your opinions.

Well Richard you are most too kind. I am no expert per se, but I will tell you this.....Biggie's jiu/jow is the ****! It is the best I have come across so far, and I have tried many a different roach juice. I have heard Pattersons is quite good, but just have never have ordered any.

Cheers
Jake :D

Mike Biggie jiu/jow
 

The best I have used. I have placed an order for the herbs and eagerly await UPS. Like Richard said, Mike is a busy guy but always returns my calls. He is class act and a treasure for those in Oh-ten.

Jake

Deals with essence, jing you know. You would have to have an in depth knowledge of Qigong to understand it. I am sure you do.

Jow works, no doubt about it. Each herb in the formulae has a specific function. Most Iron Palm forumuaes have over 20 different herbs. Basic jows for bruising can have less.

I Have also learned that one jow does not fit all when it comes to iron palm. I am sure most will do fine but it is better to get one specifically for your students. Some forumuales are for warmer cilimates or summer use or colder or winter use. It may not make alot of difference but if you are going to use something why not do it the best way you can with the best medicine.

Most people who make the formuales understand this and will make adjustments as needed

I get my forumuales from someone who has a TCM practice and Trains in CMA. That way I know I get the best.

"Iron Palm" is to broad of a term to be able to discuss on a forum. First off Internal or External iron palm? Which style of internal or external?

Not hurting your hands is a worry, but just because you have not hurt your hands does not mean you have not or are not injuring yourself. It is more complex than that.

I have found that most who do iron palm are just doing a very basic level of external training. That is all that I have done myself. I would like to do the higher levels but can not make the comittment yet. But, I can educate my students enough to know that this type of training is more complex than just banging the bag.

Most would be just well off to slam the makawara with the okinawans. They can hit hard.

Any body ever read this book
 

Has anybody ever read the book Shaolin Long Fist by Jwing-Ming Yang? There's a page or two about Red sand Iron palm, in which the last stage is to strike heated sand, or iron filings. Then use a jow that would other wise be poisonous. The end result is and iron palm, and sterility. I don't train this, but have wondered about it for a wile. Has anybody else heard about this, or are able to add anything to it? Also any body ever hear of Takamatsu Toshitsugu? he used to strike gravel until he could turn it to dust, then strike mediums sized rocks, then large stones, and was said to have mastered it by the age of 14 (he started learning it at 9). I have seen pictures of his hands, and his finger nails alone look like their a few centimeters thick (as do his toe nails). I have heard stories stating he was able to drill his fingers into trees, as well as rip the bark from them as well.

Well the bodies main point is to reproduce. So the body will replenish the semen before repairing any injuries sustained to the body. So the older you get the longer it takes for your body to replenish the semen. A young person can maybe get away with not cutting back on sex during this training. But an older person might want to cut back on sexual activities to help your body heal faster during this training that is taxing on the body. That is the deal with the sexual issues and training.

It is to my understanding that Iron Palm training teaches you correct soft jin, how to penetrate through resistance, and to stregnthen ligaments, bones, and tendons.

Like any other technique, there are various levels of penetrating through animate and inanimate objects. Driving through and breaking every brick or object is the beginning. Controlling the pressure, direction, and distance of controlled inertia is advanced.

In regards to using Die Da Jiu. Impact resistance is no different from mucular conditioning. The muscles, bones, ligaments, and tendons, all undergo controlled damaging. The intensity of your training determines the amount of rest and nourishment required. It won't kill you if you don't eat after hard trainning. But if you want the body to develop more efficiently, eating within the 20 min. window will prevent catabolism.

With intense impact resistance, the damage causes stagnation of damaged and "rescue" cells. The Taoist have a saying, "If it's stagnant, it's dead". Using Die Da Jiu enforces the habit of massaging the body and reaping all the benefits from such stimulus. Again, it is not required because the human body is the perfect machine. But like all machines, it can be "dumb" at times. The greater the intensity, the more the body will compensate. Die Da Jiu helps the body heal so the body won't have to compensate.

While the technique may be learned in 100 days, it will take a minimum of 6 months for the bones to become "iron" based on the bones ability to reach equilibrium with the amount of stress placed upon it.

Ultimately, Iron Palm/Iron Body trainning includes progressive overload, variation, nourishment, and requires time, effort, and patience.

Dos centavos,
M.

Impact Training
 

First and foremost, anything in excess is not a good for sure. So discipline is key in any training.

Western medicial knowledge and perspective is different from eastern counter part. Chinese philosophy, which influences its medicine, views human as part of a larger whole. It is part of nature and unavoidably under the influence of nature or various levels of ecology. It is for this reason that Qi as a model is so important in everything Chinese be it philosophy, medicine, military, arts and pugilism.

Impact training (ie Iron palm, Iron body, etc) is in essence hard Qigong. It has direct effects on the body and will cause damage in the long run if not dealt with utmost care. Other martial arts like Boxing, Muay Thai, etc don't pay much attention or believe in minding the Qi aspect and we can see the results in the countless ailments that their stylists suffer once they slow down in their old age. If you look at the Chinese arts, you will notice the difference. The point is that impact training should be for strengthening the body or its parts not to break it. So due care should be exercised through out the training process. That's why we have the 3 returns 9 rotations method, Pai Da gong, 18 Luohan, etc.

Boxer don't believe in Iron palm and such things and they often break their hands when punching hard without the protection of the glove. Their argument in seeing other martial artists not breaking their hands while punching is that those guys aren't punching hard enough. Be that as it may, I am certain that people who have trained both ways understood there is a difference with trained hands and non trained hands.

Anyway, I don't go crazy on the whole making your hands hard. I believe hitting the palm bag, heavy bag, gravel pot, and the occassional hitting the walls are good enough. I understand the urge to break bricks and such but then if one has to go to find the "right" material for breaking, I think it's twisted into more or less an ego trip. Personally, I believe that you can punch or strike hard (really hard) bared handed while fighting without the fear of breaking your own hand is good enough.

Different styles has different Iron palm potion formula. We have to remember that the training is to strength the skin, the muscle/tendon, and the bones of the hand. There are also the issues of blood and Qi circulation and pain threshold. A good formula will take care of all these issues. Most Iron palm training and the potion formula would involve rusted iron and/or vinegar. This is basically for toughening the skin. If you are not too worry about the skin (ie cuts and scrapes), then this ingredient is not really that important and can be skipped IMHO.

Mantis108

Mr. 108

Come on!!

We know you slice though one foot of steel reinforced concrete!

You are just being modest.

Would anyone like share their iron palm training regemine or key aspects found within?

An interesting bit of information:
Zinc promotes and aids healing in the body and seminal fluid has a high content of zinc (unless you have fertility problems). Loss of seminal fluid depletes available stores of zinc that are better used for healing the micro-ruptures caused by iron palm training.

Supplementing with zinc tablets would offset this but there may be more involved than this alone.

DStone

You know how folks do not share their jiu/jow recipes, maybe these folks do not want to share their IP training regiment. I do not train iron palm. I feel a Mantis Boxer these days does not need this training, JMO. My personal opinion... we already have an edge.

Ok Yushan

I will post a formulae I got I San Francisco almost over 15 years ago.

I was a white boy in China Town. Had been studying a hybrid southern style and some other systems for almost 10 years. Knew nothing about the chineses herbs at the time. But I knew that I just had have some of this mystical "dit da jow". Walked into an herb shop and walked up to the old chinese man behind the counter. I told him what I wanted acting cool like knew about herbs.

He goes away and comes back with a pre packed pouch that you could get at any of the stores and best of all he handed me a jar of Icey Hot. No kidding. I said "are you sure, this if for kung fu" (thinking how can this be!!). He said "Those kung fu masters are full of ****, Icey Hot better"!

True story.


Secret formulae for free. There you go. I dont hold back!

Sounds about as foolish as keeping forms secret :)

I've used both icy hot and dit da jow. From my personal experience the icy hot gives a quicker response for the pain, but that was it. Using the dit da jow for a long period seemed to help heal my injuries quicker than if I did nothing. Of course, the icy hot smells better.

John

icy hot vs. dit da jow
 

While we're on the subject of icy hot vs. dit da jow, has anyone tried using "biofreeze," or perhaps one of topical glucosamine/chondroitin/msm formulas?

Also, Richard, thanks for Mike Biggie's email address. I appreciate it.

Tim

Hi Mantid1
 

If I have that kind of superpower and I acquired it through training and not natural talent, I don't have to work in a video store. All I have to do is go "Billy Blanks". I will be a millionaire just by selling my secret training to the masses. Think of all the product that I can sell. Of course, you can be my manager or VP of the company. In the fine prints, I will add that "result may varies from practitioner to practitioner." BTW with all those IP training books, videos, products, etc... How come we don't see and of those stylists go to NHB events already. You know you don't have to break the rules because there is no rules against slapping someone on the shoulder and break or demolish the whole shoulder just because you have the "special" power. On the other hand, you could get a hold of an arm and just "rub" the bones into pieces. Isn't that what the famous Koo Yuzhang used to do to a live horse? If any IP stylist can do that, then NHB will be shut down for good, don't you think?

Anyway back to reality, I am 100% with Yu Shan. Mantis gives us an edge already. The major muscle that we need to train in this day and age is the one between our ears.

Hi DStone,

My not so secret IP training is as follow:

Disclaimer: This routine is proposed for discussion purpose only. Always practice under the supervision of a knowledgeable teacher. This is not suggested for novice who have no prior experience in martial arts. I and no other person on the Mantis Quarterly forum will be responsible for any injury or damage sustained through attempting the routine.

Equipment: telephone book (can't afford a sand palm bag) rest on a sturdy stool about butt high so that you would need to get into a horse stance for hitting.

I like to start with a light body workout or bridge hand exercises. I also like to massage my hand first before hitting the back.

We do five basic strikes which you could do on a wave master, wall bag or heavy bag as well.

Slapping with palm and back of the hand (lightly 100 times for warm up and 20 - 50 times hard)

Knife hand (same amount as above)

Fist (same amount as above)

Knuckles (same amount as above)

Palm heel (20 - 50 times close distance and penetrating)

If you like, you can add elbows (Muay Thai likes to do this one on a coconut.) If you have a old hockey helmet or any helmet at all you could do the elbows on it as well. Just becareful and don't go crazy and break your elbows.

Remember to exercise moderations and use Die Da Jiu afterward. Some people like to use the Jiu before and after. That's up to you. If you intend to keep practicing everyday then keep the light strikes to a 100 times and the heavy strikes to 20 times. Take a few days break every 12 weeks and adjust the hitting strength each cycle of 12 weeks. Most important of all, it will be pretty noisy when hitting the bags. Make sure you neighbours are okay with it.

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS restrain from sexual activities during the first 12 weeks cycle and moderation (once a week tops) after that. Partying is right out!

What's up with the emoticons? It won't allow me to post?

I know the theories behind no sex, but seriously, **** that!
Let us all remember that their is a distinct difference between Jow formula's and Iron Palm formula's too. Jow is not meant to be used for Iron Palm work.
Yes I have heard about Red Sand training. Not much though. Ihave heard that striking into sand (or anything) with your fingertips can cause serious damage since your jing well points are located at the finger tips.
Cheers
Jake :D

I trained my fingertips years ago and never had any problems. At first they were black under the fingernails from the bruising but after awhile I was blasting cedar shingles into smaller and smaller pieces with no trouble.

Hmm, come to think of it maybe that's why I can't throw qi balls. :rolleyes:

Going back to the debate about Dit Da Jow vs. Icy Hot. I have found that if you menthol crystals and a bit of camphor to your jow you will recieve the same pain relieving benifits of Icy Hot and the internal healing asoects of the Dit Da Jow.

You can purchase menthol crystals and comphor blocks at any drug store or herb shop.

Going back to the debate about Dit Da Jow vs. Icy Hot. I have found that if you add menthol crystals and a bit of camphor to your jow you will recieve the same pain relieving benifits of Icy Hot and the internal healing componet of the Dit Da Jow.

You can purchase menthol crystals and comphor blocks at any drug store or herb shop.

Friends,
My "iron palm" training has changed drastically over the years. When I began in my teens years, my training consisted of digging sandstone rocks of various sizes out of the hillside behind my house and breaking them with my fist or palm. Stupid yes, but it helped me overcome my fear of hurting myself.
As I matured, I began regular training with iron palm bags. However, my emphasis changed from studying how to break inanimate objects, to human anatomy, acupuncture and the means to effectively damage the human body.
I will admit that I am no longer very impressive at breaking rocks, boards and blocks, but I do know how to send a challenger home urinating blood, or send him to the floor with cavity presses and nerve strikes.
So, I may not be as much fun at demonstrations anymore, but I would rather be effective at simply defending myself and teaching my students to do the same.

Richard

Quick Notes
 

Iron Palm Die Da Jiu may differ between schools from Northern China vs. Southern China. In the South, where Buddhist ideology (ie the body is like a space shuttle which requires a tremendous amount of effort to break through the atmosphere)is predominant , many schools require 2 seperate formulas for Iron Palm/Iron Body training. The premise behind this method is to stimulate the wei qi before contact, followed by the stimulation of ying qi after contact. In western words, there are different stages of injury: the inflammatory, proliferative, and remodeling stages. Thus there are methodical healing techniques for each stage.

Herbs that help you "feel" that it's working are used to stimulate the wei qi (defensive chi), or inflammatory response, in preparation for contact. The continued use of menthol, camphor, etc., may cause throw your healing response out of it's natural cycle if not used during the appropriate time of injury.

In Northern China, where Taoism is predominant, many schools require only the ying qi formula. The Taoist approach is very soft, progressive, and time-consuming. The arguement here is that if bruising or pain is present, then you are over-working the body. Consistent, long-term, progressive practice is the key to this method.

The training method that Shifu Puyot has taught me includes high repititions of Falling Palm, Ridge Hand Palm, backhand palm, fist, and fingers on sand bag followed by knife hand in a bucket full of Mung Beans (Mungo!). The material in the bag and bucket increase in density after years of practice (ie, after the all the green is peeled off the mungo). The focus is on disolving any muscular tension in an effort to stregnthen the bones, tendons, and ligaments. There is a known fear of training the finger tips (merdians associated with vision), but if you include massage and healing as part of your training, you should be fine.

Iron Body gets tricky. Formulas are adjusted based on which herbs have an affinity for specific regions of the body. Of course, a simple base formula Die Da Jiu is always effective.

Lastly, on injuries, inadequate healing, not inflammation, is the problem. Many western approaches lean towards Icing, numbing, etc. Taoist believe that icing will lead to arthritis. Pain is a good indicator to stop what you are doing. I only prescribe the RICE principle to students who can not bare the pain (which is rarely the case).

M.